Curse

Mormegil · Aug 25, 2005, 02:00 PM // 14:00

I see more and more debate over the solo farmers issue. Solo eles or solo warriors are not the main targets though, as people seem to usually bash on solo/invincible monks.

I'll be more than happy to show that most of the common assumptions against solo monks are controversial, if not, in some cases, totally false.

1- "It takes nothing to build an invincible monk and solo everything"

I won't go into detail here, but everyone knows that 4-5 superior monk runes are needed. That means a lot of money to start with. That could mean buying a second armor set as well, because if you want to play any average PvE with guildies or friends you'll need to change your gear again.
Secondly, you can't solo everything, you can solo some type of monsters, because too many health degen conditions, some interrupts, or just one enchantment stripper will take you down in a few seconds.

2- "It's too easy killing monsters that way, too fast, and you can get an incredible amount of gold/items

Too easy? This assumption, which is probably the most abused one, is contradictory in itself. First off, farming as a 105 monk does take some skill. We're not talking about a huge amount of skill, but it's different from farming Tengus. Killing 5 ataxes at the same time requires some timing and a high degree of attention, if not, in some cases, a bit of luck. It becomes fairly easy when you're used to it, but you still have to actively play your character in a decent way, while farming as people know it usually takes some robotic clicks here and there on the keyboard, rezone and repeat.
Therefore, here is the contradiction: it becomes quite easy killing monster this way, but to do it fast and get an incredible amount of gold/items you'll need skill, experience and attention. The more you kill fast and get huge amounts of loot, the less easy it is.

3- They generate inflation

This assumption is laughable at best. Did anyone check the price of ectos right now, instead of screaming like crybabies over the fact that you can't find monks to play in the UW because they solo it and they're meanie and unfair? The rare material trader was selling them for 14-15k two weeks ago or so, and now they're sold for roughly 9k. You can buy them from players for 8k lately. Now, if naysayers knew a bit of basic economy, they'd find that supply has increased, while demand is the same.

4- They're ruining the nature of this game: teamplay

False. Typically, the 105 monk has already finished the game at least twice, owns a good amount of money even before starting soloing seriously, and still plays with friends-guildies often, because let's say it, long farming sessions are terribly boring.
Not to mention the fact that the solo monk build is open to a huge number of tweaks, can be modified and customized in many ways. It has already generated a lot of valuable discussions over skills, cooldown times, and such. It's a little bit different from saying "play the Hell difficulty level, kill Mephisto again and again, and one day you'll have your Windforce"

In conclusion, I'm firmly convinced that most of this acid criticism comes from people who are very bad at the game or at farming in general, and bash on others for the sake of it. This game is open enough to be played and enjoyed in radically different ways, invoking the nerf bat over anything other people do and you can't do is silly.

Let me know what's your opinion on the matter.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 25, 2005, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

I see more and more debate over the solo farmers issue. Solo eles or solo warriors are not the main targets though, as people seem to usually bash on solo/invincible monks.

I'll be more than happy to show that most of the common assumptions against solo monks are controversial, if not, in some cases, totally false.

1- "It takes nothing to build an invincible monk and solo everything"

I won't go into detail here, but everyone knows that 4-5 superior monk runes are needed. That means a lot of money to start with. That could mean buying a second armor set as well, because if you want to play any average PvE with guildies or friends you'll need to change your gear again.
Secondly, you can't solo everything, you can solo some type of monsters, because too many health degen conditions, some interrupts, or just one enchantment stripper will take you down in a few seconds.

2- "It's too easy killing monsters that way, too fast, and you can get an incredible amount of gold/items

Too easy? This assumption, which is probably the most abused one, is contradictory in itself. First off, farming as a 105 monk does take some skill. We're not talking about a huge amount of skill, but it's different from farming Tengus. Killing 5 ataxes at the same time requires some timing and a high degree of attention, if not, in some cases, a bit of luck. It becomes fairly easy when you're used to it, but you still have to actively play your character in a decent way, while farming as people know it usually takes some robotic clicks here and there on the keyboard, rezone and repeat.
Therefore, here is the contradiction: it becomes quite easy killing monster this way, but to do it fast and get an incredible amount of gold/items you'll need skill, experience and attention. The more you kill fast and get huge amounts of loot, the less easy it is.

3- They generate inflation

This assumption is laughable at best. Did anyone check the price of ectos right now, instead of screaming like crybabies over the fact that you can't find monks to play in the UW because they solo it and they're meanie and unfair? The rare material trader was selling them for 14-15k two weeks ago or so, and now they're sold for roughly 9k. You can buy them from players for 8k lately. Now, if naysayers knew a bit of basic economy, they'd find that supply has increased, while demand is the same.

4- They're ruining the nature of this game: teamplay

False. Typically, the 105 monk has already finished the game at least twice, owns a good amount of money even before starting soloing seriously, and still plays with friends-guildies often, because let's say it, long farming sessions are terribly boring.
Not to mention the fact that the solo monk build is open to a huge number of tweaks, can be modified and customized in many ways. It has already generated a lot of valuable discussions over skills, cooldown times, and such. It's a little bit different from saying "play the Hell difficulty level, kill Mephisto again and again, and one day you'll have your Windforce"

In conclusion, I'm firmly convinced that most of this acid criticism comes from people who are very bad at the game or at farming in general, and bash on others for the sake of it. This game is open enough to be played and enjoyed in radically different ways, invoking the nerf bat over anything other people do and you can't do is silly.

Let me know what's your opinion on the matter.

lol. Its the number 1 most ubiquitous defense for the 105 build.

it goes like this... Blah blah blah, words words words, random insults, more words words words, complete refusal to recognize that the build is built upon the abuse of a singular overpowered and unbalanced skill, blah blah, a few more insults thrown in for good measure, and in conclusion, 'youre just mad because you cant".

Laughable.

Mormegil · Aug 25, 2005, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

lol. Its the number 1 most ubiquitous defense for the 105 build.

it goes like this... Blah blah blah, words words words, random insults, more words words words, complete refusal to recognize that the build is built upon the abuse of a singular overpowered and unbalanced skill, blah blah, a few more insults thrown in for good measure, and in conclusion, 'youre just mad because you cant".

Laughable.

I love people who reply like this, backing up their opinions with valid reasons. I'd ask you to show that this build is built upon the abuse of a singular overpowered skill, but I won't, because it seems evident to me you would answer in the same, naysayer way.

Diplo · Aug 25, 2005, 02:49 PM // 14:49

The reason for nerfing it is simple: ANet never, ever intended the game to be played that way. It's an exploit, albeit a clever one. The whole idea of Guild Wars is that professions should be more-or-less on a parr with each other. If only one profession using some esoteric build can solo UW then obviously something is wrong.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 25, 2005, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

I love people who reply like this, backing up their opinions with valid reasons. I'd ask you to show that this build is built upon the abuse of a singular overpowered skill, but I won't, because it seems evident to me you would answer in the same, naysayer way.

The definition of a valid reason is purely subjective.

Mormegil · Aug 25, 2005, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

The reason for nerfing it is simple: ANet never, ever intended the game to be played that way. It's an exploit, albeit a clever one. The whole idea of Guild Wars is that professions should be more-or-less on a parr with each other. If only one profession using some esoteric build can solo UW then obviously something is wrong.

Warriors can solo in many parts of the game. Eles can. Minion master Necros can give a shot at it as well. It's not only one profession using an esoteric build, and farming with skill and attention doesnt seem an exploit to me.

EDIT: valid reason, in this case, is when you actually SHOW with facts that a skill or a combo is overpowered. Since you apparently can't, you don't have a valid reason on your side. Hope I'm clear enough.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 25, 2005, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

The reason for nerfing it is simple: ANet never, ever intended the game to be played that way. It's an exploit, albeit a clever one. The whole idea of Guild Wars is that professions should be more-or-less on a parr with each other. If only one profession using some esoteric build can solo UW then obviously something is wrong.

/golfclap

Excellent, although you're bound to be flamed like youre the secret ingrediant on Iron Chef for calling it what it is, an exploit, or at the very least, outside of what the devs intended.

Dont tell me I dont Know what the devs intended, I know that I dont, none of us do. That having been said, You'll never convince me they intended monks to be wearing doubled up sup runes (for the 105) and raiding one of the high end pve areas solo wielding a noob necromancer quest item (for the 55)...

The Arcade Fire · Aug 25, 2005, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

It's a little bit different from saying "play the Hell difficulty level, kill Mephisto again and again, and one day you'll have your Windforce"

Just wanted to point out that Mephisto doesn't drop Windforce

Theos · Aug 25, 2005, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Do we really need all these "defend the 105/55" threads poping up everywhere? I felt like leaving the other one alone, as it is full of those who would do anything to keep their cash cow in the game so why bother.

Not much for me to say though, beyond that some of your logic escapes me. It is damn well easy to solo UW with your 105/55 monk, you'd have to be a complete idiot to not get it in the first few tries. Expensive? Please go farm tengu and get the runes or pay a little for your nice "out of order build".

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 25, 2005, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

Warriors can solo in many parts of the game. Eles can. Minion master Necros can give a shot at it as well. It's not only one profession using an esoteric build, and farming with skill and attention doesnt seem an exploit to me.

EDIT: valid reason, in this case, is when you actually SHOW with facts that a skill or a combo is overpowered. Since you apparently can't, you don't have a valid reason on your side. Hope I'm clear enough.

Show me the warrior whos wearing doubled up sup runes, prior to the exploit being known NOBODY wouldve done that, anything that causes the masses to suddenly do something that nobody wouldve done before should set off alarms for those who are interested in more than what "can" be done. Aside from that show me the warrior who can solo with even 1/4 of the effectiveness as a monk in UW. And before you say that its not more profitiable in UW or whatever excuse you want to use, explain to me why it is then greneth CRAWLS with monks anytime it looks like we might be seeing favor come back to us.

as far as a reason... Its subjective, purely, I could give you a reason I consider valid, and you could say its invalid, and round and round we go, I choose not to participate in that. Say what you will about validation, I dont especially need your validation.

Algren Cole · Aug 25, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

/golfclap

Excellent, although you're bound to be flamed like youre the secret ingrediant on Iron Chef for calling it what it is, an exploit, or at the very least, outside of what the devs intended.

Dont tell me I dont Know what the devs intended, I know that I dont, none of us do. That having been said, You'll never convince me they intended monks to be wearing doubled up sup runes (for the 105) and raiding one of the high end pve areas solo wielding a noob necromancer quest item (for the 55)...

but the devs intended for WaMos to run low level characters to Droknar...they Intended for lvl1-9 players to be wearing end-game armor in the ascalon arena....there are better things the developers can be spending their time on.You bitch and moan about things that don't have anything to do with you...it doesn't have an bearing on your game or how you play it. It doesn't need a balance because it doesn't effect anyone but the person using it. but keep bitching and keep complaining...it's about the only thing the majority of the GW commuity is good for.

Fanatic · Aug 25, 2005, 03:02 PM // 15:02

I see no problem with the build and I don't see why so many people are so upset about the 55/105 monk build. It is not like they are dominating the HoH like the recent FOTM spirit spammers are. This build is only for soloing areas where there is only melee combat involved with no fear of disenchantments. How many areas like that exist. If you have been in UW then you know that it is a relatively small portion of that map. OOOhhhhhhh the monks are ruining the game for everyone.

I want to build one of these characters just inspite of you whiners. I have finished the game twice now and am looking to find a way to buy fissure armor. How else can you get that without farming somewhere? So the monk found a way to do it. Finally, there is ONE spot that the monk can farm effectively and some people have a problem with that. I ask you, Where do you farm? How about I start a petition to nerf your build and/or spot so you can't farm there anymore.
There are more important issues to deal with in this GAME than the "invinci monk" build, like playing it and having fun with your friends.
Next topic please.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 25, 2005, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

but the devs intended for WaMos to run low level characters to Droknar...they Intended for lvl1-9 players to be wearing end-game armor in the ascalon arena....there are better things the developers can be spending their time on.You bitch and moan about things that don't have anything to do with you...it doesn't have an bearing on your game or how you play it. It doesn't need a balance because it doesn't effect anyone but the person using it. but keep bitching and keep complaining...it's about the only thing the majority of the GW commuity is good for.

LoL, you cite those things as if I've said once that those things are fine....Get a grip and stop trolliing after me like a lost puppydog. I've never once said I agree with running, and You know damn well how I stand on the sorry state of things in the introductory pvp areas. In fact you trolled after me on that one completely off topic about the 105 build and I had to ask you to ether contribute or PM me, and you did neither. STOP TROLLING. And I'm not sure what the point of half your post being a complaint about the community is...

Mormegil · Aug 25, 2005, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Arcade Fire

Just wanted to point out that Mephisto doesn't drop Windforce

Yes, I know, it was an example.

I see there's an universal wrath against uw solo monks. I wonder how many of you have actually tried farming the uw. It's not an arrogant wonder, just a wonder. It takes time, and on an accurate calculation, I doubt it's more profitable than other farming spots, not to mention the fact that you always have to pay 1k to enter and you can even be killed when out of luck (now tell me who gets killed by the tengus).

killer toast · Aug 25, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

i get killed by tengus......

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 25, 2005, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

Yes, I know, it was an example.

I see there's an universal wrath against uw solo monks. I wonder how many of you have actually tried farming the uw. It's not an arrogant wonder, just a wonder. It takes time, and on an accurate calculation, I doubt it's more profitable than other farming spots, not to mention the fact that you always have to pay 1k to enter and you can even be killed when out of luck (now tell me who gets killed by the tengus).

If it wasnt more profitable, monk runes wouldnt be 20k. If it wasnt more profitable, nobody could sell that piece of shit necro focus item for 20k. There are plenty of other places a monk could solo if protbond would fixed, the problem with that is all the people who jumped on the bandwagon dont have to wait for someone else to figure out an effective farm again.

Esprit · Aug 25, 2005, 03:11 PM // 15:11

So another thread of cyclical arguments starts.

If the devs nerf the build, great. If the devs don't nerf the build, great. People will continue playing how they like, if they want to play the 105 road, so be it.

Igedit · Aug 25, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormegil

I won't go into detail here, but everyone knows that 4-5 superior monk runes are needed. That means a lot of money to start with.

That's part of the problem, I think. Ideally, the prices for all the superior runes for every class should at least be in the same ballpark. (or available at all at least!)

Quote:

Now, if naysayers knew a bit of basic economy, they'd find that supply has increased, while demand is the same.

This can't be said of the runes, however.

When everyone flocks to a certain build, it means there is imbalance. And ultimately, this will indeed affect PvE. True, many 105 players NOW may have the played the game a couple times already, but what about new players? They will read about the invinci-monk and use it. Over time, that means less variety of classes to PuG with.

There is nothing wrong with exploiting the imbalance, but it's obvious it's there. In the couple months I've been playing, I've already seen a drastic increase in M/x. Over time, this will only get worse.

jdwoody · Aug 25, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

ANet never, ever intended the game to be played that way.

What proof do you offer to back this up? I have read alot of the information anet has released and to be honest I think this is exactly what they had in mind.

This isn't a build that can solo and kill anyone and everything everywhere in the world. It is a unique set of armor/items/skills that is effective in a limited scope.

Unlike most games in this genre they allow you to change professions/skills/attribute points at will, combined with only allowing 8 usable skills at a time tells me they want people to combine the skills in new/interesting ways and not have a single cookie-cutter build that can walk over the entire map killing everything.

Algren Cole · Aug 25, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

LoL, you cite those things as if I've said once that those things are fine....Get a grip and stop trolliing after me like a lost puppydog. I've never once said I agree with running, and You know damn well how I stand on the sorry state of things in the introductory pvp areas. In fact you trolled after me on that one completely off topic about the 105 build and I had to ask you to ether contribute or PM me, and you did neither. STOP TROLLING. And I'm not sure what the point of half your post being a complaint about the community is...

I'm not trolling...I'm asking you to make a halfway decent argument as to how it effects you...but you'd rather call it trolling than make an attempt because the fact of it is that it doesn't effect you.